Below is the edited transcript of the video above:
Ocean Robbins: Welcome to Food Revolution Conversations. I’m Ocean Robbins, co-founder and CEO of Food Revolution Network. Our focus on this interview is on how we will be taught from indigenous knowledge to assist us restore proper relation with our personal lives, with one another, and with our planet.
I’m thrilled to be joined for this interview by indigenous activist, ecologist, scientist, and therapeutic meals advocate, Lyla June. Lyla is an indigenous environmental scientist and wholesome meals methods advocate. She’s a doctoral scholar on the University of New Mexico and an educator, group organizer, musician, and inspiration to a complete lot of individuals, together with me.
Her work focuses on private, collective, and ecological therapeutic. Her internationally acclaimed performances and speeches convey collectively prayer, hip hop, poetry, acoustic music, and phrases. Her private objective is to develop nearer to Creator by studying the best way to love deeper. Lyla, welcome.
Lyla June: Thank you a lot for having me, Ocean.
Indigenous Cultural Sophistication
Ocean Robbins: Well, I’m simply thrilled to have this time with you. There’s a little bit of a fable that indigenous folks, pre-Columbus, had been primitive. Yet, the reality is that there have been extraordinarily subtle cultures that did one thing that actually no person in industrialized civilization has come near doing, which was really making the Earth an increasing number of considerable and exquisite. Can you share a bit of bit about that and what your research have taught you in regards to the historical past there?
Lyla June: My PhD work is on the intersection of indigenous meals methods and indigenous land administration, and the way we’d domesticate the pure food-bearing capability of whole bioregions. Even although I’m getting my PhD in it, I’m nonetheless like a bit of child in comparison with a few of my elders who’ve been not simply speaking about this, however dwelling it their complete life. I’ll simply illustrate what you’re speaking about with a few examples.
Lyla June: One is in Kentucky. The Shawnee ancestors, they really created a meals forest. We know this as a result of the fossilized pollen file is there within the ponds. And you may date the macrofossils and the pollen to see how previous it’s. What we see is that about three,000 years in the past, the Shawnee Osage ancestors, in what we now name Kentucky, really sustained a meals forest of black walnut, chestnut, hickory nut, acorn, sumpweed, goosefoot, all these edible plant species in that space for three,000 years.
We additionally see fossilized charcoal, which signifies that they managed this with (low-intensity burns) clearing the understory, ensuring you solely have 13 bushes per acre — which is a really skinny forest. Because across the US at this time, we see a whole lot of overgrown forests the place you might have a whole lot of actually sick bushes as an alternative of some actually sturdy and wholesome ones.
We noticed this inflow of pollen are available three,000 years in the past and utterly substitute a cedar and hemlock-dominated forest. They simply moved in, reworked the entire place right into a meals forest, and continued for three,000 years.
The Bella Bella
Lyla June: Another instance is the Heiltsuk (also referred to as Bella Bella), group in British Columbia. They’re proper up between Vancouver and Alaska, on the shoreline in British Columbia. They hand plant kelp forests — to at the present time. And they’ve been doing it for hundreds of years. The impact of this kelp forest cultivation is that it will increase the floor space upon which the herring, which is a small, silver fish, can lay its eggs.
The Heiltsuk folks construct these big forests of a particular kelp that grows sooner than any crops had been used to. I feel it’s like a meter per week or one thing like that. And so, you might have considerable floor space. This elevated floor space offers a house for the fish eggs that in flip present the muse for a complete meals net. The seals eat them, and so they in flip turn out to be meals for the orca whales. The salmon, the wolves, the eagles, the people — everybody up the meals chain relies on the herring roe.
And, after all, the herring may be very distinguished of their (the Heiltsuk’s) creation tales, of their histories, of their cultural data and tales. Essentially, it’s an necessary a part of the ecosystem there, and so they perceive that. And they domesticate it. That’s one other instance.
The Amah Mutsun
Lyla June: In Santa Cruz, California, you might have the Amah Mutsun folks. The chairman, Val Lopez, mentioned that their rule of thumb was to have about 13 bushes per acre. (By having just a few large sturdy bushes, with loads of house between them, they had been in a position to dramatically scale back forest fireplace hazard.) The oak groves supplied considerable acorns, which are literally extremely scrumptious and nutritious. These oak bushes have fire-resistant bark as a result of they co-evolved with human fireplace for thus lengthy.
Lyla June: Then, one of many different examples I like to present is the clam gardens. The clams prefer to exist a sure depth under the ocean floor. And so, alongside the shoreline, many countries will really improve the depth of the shoreline to create habitat for these clams.
And so, what I’m discovering is a whole lot of indigenous meals methods are about habitat building, such that your meals will come to you, and also you don’t need to go to it. And you not solely create meals for your self and your folks, however for all dwelling beings since you’re not the one one consuming these clams.
Ocean Robbins: Well, thanks for sharing all of that. It’s really very heartening, I feel, for these of us who suppose that now we have to invent one thing that’s by no means been earlier than to ensure that our species to outlive — to appreciate that now we have some knowledge we will draw upon. Just for example… We are on useful resource consumption overshoot world wide. We are depleting our aquifers at an unsustainable fee and billions of persons are going to expire of consuming water within the subsequent technology.
We are depleting our topsoil. In reality, UN researchers have estimated that we may run out of farmable soil within the subsequent couple of generations as a result of the quantity of soil that now we have to develop our meals is a 3rd of what it was within the US when Columbus landed.
We’re destabilizing our local weather, creating extra droughts and floods. And with much less topsoil, they trigger extra harm. Droughts are extra intense as a result of there’s much less water saved within the soil. Floods are extra damaging, and so they wash away what soil there’s. And it doesn’t maintain the water.
All of this may trigger devastation. And all of this impacts our means to develop meals for future generations. These sorts of ideas, how we stroll and reside and develop our meals, are elementary to our survival.
Stewards of Biodiversity
Lyla June: Absolutely. About 60% of the meals that the world enjoys come initially from indigenous peoples of the Americas as a result of our meals sciences had been so subtle.
As it’s possible you’ll know, native peoples — that means folks with hundreds of years of historical past in a spot — are about 5% of the worldwide inhabitants. And but, they’re overseeing, in line with a current UN report, 80% of the world’s biodiversity. This concept that we had been simpletons or primitive couldn’t be farther from the reality as a result of we had an unbelievable data of the biodiversity ideas that truly cultivated and, such as you mentioned, regenerated the land round us.
Ocean Robbins: When you say that indigenous peoples characterize 5% of the world’s inhabitants and but are stewards of 80% of the world’s biodiversity, do you imply that that the animal and plant species of the world are hyper-concentrated in areas that indigenous peoples are serving to to guard?
Lyla June: Yes, they maintain tenure over about 20% of the Earth’s land which holds about 80% of the world’s biodiversity, by species depend.
The Vitalness Of Indigenous Peoples
Ocean Robbins: That’s really excellent news for followers of biodiversity as a result of it implies that a whole lot of the world’s species are at present, to some extent, being protected by indigenous peoples who’ve a reasonably good observe file of caring for biodiversity. But, after all, in lots of components of the world, these lands are threatened, even at this time. It isn’t simply that encroachment on native peoples occurred tons of of years in the past. It’s persevering with day-after-day in lots of these very hotspots that you just’re describing with oil exploration, with deforestation, with cattle ranching, and so forth.
Lyla June: Yes. Native peoples aren’t only a cute factor to have round. They really are important to the persistence of humanity. And it’s time to cease treating us as if we’re disposable as a result of we’re not.
And so, it’s not nearly defending these lands. It’s about defending the folks. And it’s not nearly defending the folks’s our bodies. It’s about defending our data as a result of that’s what is sustaining all of it.
Living Within a Capitalist System
Ocean Robbins: It appears to me that one of many challenges that some indigenous peoples face is the best way to work together with a capitalist financial system and but protect their values, tradition, and so forth. And for those who are actually in a position to be self-sufficient, it’s one factor. But after they turn out to be depending on exterior inputs, whether or not it’s expertise, or web, or meals methods, then it’s a lot more durable to take care of sovereignty inside their very own communities.
What is your tackle the best way to navigate that? Every group is completely different and each context is completely different, however what are a number of the ideas you maintain for a way indigenous peoples can protect, maintain, and deepen their tradition or their values in communities world wide, care for his or her ecosystems that all of us rely on for our survival, and on the identical time, discover a technique to reside in relationship to the trendy world?
Lyla June: Well, that’s the million-dollar query. But from what I’ve seen, an enormous downside is solved by doing precisely what we’re doing, which is debunking the parable of who’s civilized and who just isn’t. I feel now we have to debunk this mythology that claims that native cultures are inferior, and US Western civilization is superior. And after we try this, we’ll make extra room for indigenous worldviews, cosmologies, and practices.
An Interconnected World
Ocean Robbins: One of the issues that’s occurring to me on this dialog, too, is that no person exists in isolation. We all breathe the identical air, drink the identical water, and share a standard local weather. And in that sense, the survival of indigenous peoples does rely not directly on the survival of humanity as a complete.
And so, in that sense, I feel we come again form of full circle to say, not simply how can indigenous folks survive in face of the onslaught of violence, but additionally how can the industrialized world reconnect with our rightful place as people on this planet?
And it appears to me that most individuals I do know in North America carry a deep feeling of loneliness of their hearts, a sense of uprootedness, a sense of not fairly belonging. And we tackle that in all types of various methods. I feel that loneliness kills extra quickly than cigarettes do. And it’s one of many epidemics of the industrialized world. Do you suppose that there’s indigenous knowledge that would assist everyone, no matter the place their ancestors come from, or the place they reside at this time, to really feel extra of a way of belonging to the world?
Honoring Our Ancestors
Lyla June: Yeah. If you return far sufficient, we’re all of an indigenous folks or peoples.
I imply, I’m half European by and huge. My European aspect does have a bit of little bit of native tribes blended in there. But for essentially the most half, my ancestors on that aspect are Scottish, Scandinavian, and perhaps different issues.
And after I was within the hogan with my mom’s folks — it’s a standard sacred constructing — as we sat in it, we needed to introduce all of our clans. All of our 4 grandparents, now we have to say the place they’re from. So I used to be saying the European ones, and impulsively, I may really feel these ancestors coming in. And I used to be overtaken by their love and their kindness and their magnificence.
My complete life, I had been skilled to suppose that white was dangerous. That white folks had been the slave house owners and those who dedicated genocide. But in that ceremony, they got here very strongly. And I knew that I used to be indigenous all the best way round, and that I needed to honor ALL of my ancestors.
And so, I did return to Europe. I went to the British Isles, Switzerland, Italy, and France, and I prayed on the mountains. I may really feel that we Euro-Americans come from a land, too.
We Are All of the Land
Lyla June: And I actually noticed that our activity as white folks is to shake the amnesia and to do not forget that we’re from stunning lands and goddess-worshiping peoples. They discovered these clay effigies throughout Europe. And one among them was present in German soil. And it’s of a lady. And it’s speculated to symbolize the fertility of the earth, the fertility of ladies and honoring girls. And they radiocarbon dated it; it was 40,000 years previous. So that is how lengthy our folks have been utilizing their arms to mildew the clay into an effigy to honor the sanctity of the earth and of ladies. And that’s who we’re (and what we come from).
And the skinny wall of time that dominates our understanding of Europe — King Louis, Napoleon, The Inquisition, the witch burnings — that’s not who we’re. That was a really laborious time the place our folks suffered tremendously, and far of the indigenous data was misplaced with our grandmothers.
But for those who go earlier than that, you will note wealthy, indigenous European tradition. And so completely we do belong; we’re of a phenomenal folks.
Ocean Robbins: Oh, thanks. There’s one thing form of elementary right here to how we understand ourselves as human beings. The reality is, I can typically take a look at people as a little bit of a scourge on the Earth. I imply, we torture animals in manufacturing facility farms. And in all places we go, folks have a tendency — many people — to journey round and depart issues worse than we discovered them. But you’re telling us that’s not who we’re, that we even have the capability to reside in concord with nature and to make issues extra stunning for our being right here. That’s good to know, to say the least.
Indigenous Farming Practices
Ocean Robbins: Indigenous farming practices have performed a big position in natural farming and built-in pest administration in trendy permaculture, as practiced at this time. Can you give any examples of ways in which indigenous practices are literally being broadly used proper now?
Lyla June: Well, after all, you might have polyculture. That was our basic precept, proper? The extra, the merrier. So for those who simply take a look at our corn, for instance, now we have tons of and tons of and tons of of sorts of corn. Even these varieties are ever-evolving as a result of we’re repeatedly cross-pollinating.
I introduced some Pueblo corn to my buddy earlier this spring, and he crossed-pollinated it with his blue corn. We had two completely different strands of blue corn to create a brand new blue corn. That is what we’re all the time attempting to do is diversify genes at each alternative.
You even have, after all, the biochar motion developing, which is humorous as a result of indigenous peoples all the time burned just about from coast to coast. You’d see widespread, low-intensity burns that truly would improve the soil. You have the transformation of particles into potassium, nitrogen, and different bioavailable vitamins that the grasslands love. One tablespoon of biochar has a soccer discipline’s price of floor space. Because the charcoal has all these miniature residences for microbes within it. When you burn, you’re not simply injecting bioavailable vitamins into the soil. You are additionally creating houses for microbes and to create a dwelling soil.
Water Systems & Aquaculture
Lyla June: Numerous us are occupied with water, proper? Here’s a very loopy concept: don’t pollute the floor water! That method, you don’t need to drill so deep into the earth to get water. It’s simply flowing proper there to you.
I imply, Flint, Michigan, and all the rivers which can be stuffed with fertilizers and different poisonous supplies, they’re all serving to us be taught what doesn’t work.
One final fast instance I’ll give is Tenochtitlan, which is now Mexico City. Before the Spanish arrived, it was a floating metropolis on Lake Texcoco. And they really created these floating gardens.
Imagine a metropolis excreting poop and urine all day lengthy, and so they nonetheless didn’t toxify their water supply. They had unbelievable methods of really recycling their dung — their very own human dung! It was so useful. Your personal poop was so useful you may take it to the market in Tenochtitlan and commerce it for issues.
Ocean Robbins: Wow. That’s fairly a picture. We joke about promoting S-H-I-T, but it surely really was occurring. Well, that’s fascinating.
Ocean Robbins: And simply so as to add a few different items, you’ve used a few phrases. You talked about polyculture, and also you talked about meals forests.
And I simply wish to make clear that polyculture means a number of crops. Instead of a monocrop the place you’re simply rising a large discipline of 1 factor, you’re having companion planting and crops mixing it up. And planting one factor in a single season and one other factor in one other season. That creates a variety within the soil. Different crops give various things and take various things. And they steadiness one another out. You really create richer and richer soil while you try this in an clever method, just like the three sisters, for instance. Which are squash, beans, and corn.
Lyla June: And the fourth, which is amaranth.
Ocean Robbins: Amaranth. Yes — and so they work in beautiful concord.
And then, there’s additionally, after all, planting nitrogen-fixing crops — cowl crops as we name them typically.
Lyla June: Yes.
Ocean Robbins: That additionally enriches the soil. It really provides nitrogen to the soil, which then makes the subsequent crops that come after extra considerable and vibrant. And these are all methods we restore the soil fairly than simply extracting from it.
Lyla June: Correct.
Ocean Robbins: And a meals forest, if I perceive it accurately, that refers to when you might have bushes, fruit bushes, or nut bushes, or different kinds of food-producing bushes. And you then’ve additionally acquired different crops on the base of them.
Lyla June: Yes.
Ocean Robbins: And there’s a concord there as nicely, proper?
Lyla June: Yes. There’s a whole lot of cool paleo-ecological work being finished, which principally means wanting into the previous. What did the forest seem like 10,000 years in the past, or 30,000 years in the past? Every single research that I’ve been perusing talks about how there was a hyper dominance of edible plant species, particularly round sure indigenous settlements. People would plant (and nurture) the crops that gave them meals.
Humanity’s Spiritual Crisis
Ocean Robbins: I wish to form of take us to a broader stage right here. I’ve heard you describe the issues humanity is going through within the industrialized world as being partly a religious disaster. What do you imply by that? How do you see that?
Lyla June: Well, we don’t perceive how the world works. We don’t perceive that I’m not simply speaking to Ocean proper now. I’m speaking to Ocean and all the spirits that hang around with Ocean, whether or not they’re discovered, or whether or not they’re misplaced. We are usually not solely biochemical beings. Even while you’re sitting, you’re not simply sitting. There’s a lot happening within you. Not solely are we biochemical, however we’re additionally interacting with a religious world. And sadly, the enlightenment period has form of dumbed our senses to have the ability to perceive that we’re part of a dwelling, respiration, religious world as nicely.
So, after we’re restoring meals methods, we’re additionally restoring communities. And we’re restoring spirits; we’re restoring cultures.
Cultivating an Inner Environment
Lyla June: So, I’ll simply finish by saying this. What I used to be taught by my elders is that to carry the ancestors in you and to be the arms and the toes of Creator, we’d like two most important circumstances: nothing for the self, and no worry. And so, that nothing for the self piece, it means you’re not doing it for fame and fame. And you’re not doing it only for cash.
So, it’s not solely about cultivating meals forests and gardens, and natural farming. It’s about cultivating an internal setting that may maintain house for the ancestors, for the angels, or no matter your tradition calls it, so you may really turn out to be the arms and toes of one thing larger than your self.
Those two circumstances, nothing for the self and no worry, have actually — as soon as I realized that, a whole lot of issues in my life needed to change. And I’m nonetheless fine-tuning it. But think about if we taught younger folks that in class. It would change the whole lot. But as an alternative, now we have a homecoming queen and a homecoming king. And you wish to be the most well-liked. You need your fame on the market. And you’re going to highschool to get a job to get cash.
So, we virtually practice the medication individual out of each baby. And I feel that what we’re attempting to domesticate along with these meals methods, is an internal setting that may maintain that love and that compassion that makes human cultures wholesome.
Ocean Robbins: Thank you. I might additionally add that gardening, simply touching soil, interacting with crops, will be very therapeutic and restorative. In my expertise, there’s one thing satisfying about it that goes past the truth that I get meals, or that I’ve meals safety. Those are great issues, however there’s additionally one thing about being related to a way of place.
There’s nothing fairly like really getting your arms within the dust and truly feeling the supply of life rising in your personal yard or in your personal kitchen, for those who simply have little sprouts on the counter, to really feel like, “Wow, I’m part of life happening.” It’s very humbling in a method, as a result of we really feel our sense of dependency on the pure world, which actually does give all of us life.
A Song About Water
Ocean Robbins: Lyla, I do know that amongst different issues you might be an artist, with phrases and track. And I’m wondering for those who would share one thing with us at this time as we full our time collectively?
Lyla June: Sure. I used to be going to learn a poem. But now, as we had been speaking, I used to be remembering I wrote a track about water. This goes to be launched quickly with the music video and all of that. It’s really principally the phrases of a Mescalero Apache elder by the identify of Oliver Enjady. So as I sing this track, hold them in your ideas. I simply instructed him, “What about water? What do our old people tell us about water?” And that is what he mentioned. And I mentioned, “How do I put that into a song?” He gave me an extended listing of notes that I attempted to show right into a track, so right here we go.
[SINGING] He mentioned, it’s not a track; it’s a lifestyle. It’s a endlessly factor; it’s a message. He mentioned, you may say that our water is life. You can sing it many times, however will they hear?
Are we going to face by these phrases? Are we going to discover a technique to change the best way we’re dwelling, Mother Earth? She feels the whole lot, and it hurts. Like the moon, just like the physique of a lady, she is altering.
Can we return to the instances when water was alive, after we prayed at her edge, and gave thanks for this life? When the water fell from the sky, and we drank from her bosom. When the water fell from our eyes, and the water fell from our wombs? When it rose as much as the floor, now we knew each spring. No worry of competitors, only a relative to all issues.
We are folks of the solar. We are folks of the water. We will have fun our sons, we are going to have fun our daughters: give them ceremonies, so when the drought comes, they’ll be prepared.
Will the subsequent struggle be for water? All our options are a part of the issue, can’t win struggle with struggle. There is multiple creation story. Worlds have died, and worlds have been reborn earlier than.
When you contact the water, you contact the world. From tallest peaks to Gulf Streams, the reminiscences they maintain. We promote her by the acre-foot, and deal with her as our captive. The rivers are undrinkable whereas the aquifer’s extracted.
Our meals will want water to develop, however do you must take all of it? We attempt to maintain her and management her as we watch our empire fall.
He mentioned it’s not a track, it’s a lifestyle. It’s a endlessly factor; it’s a message. He mentioned, you may say that water is life. You can sing it many times, however can you reside it?
Healing Through Connection to the Earth
Ocean Robbins: Thank you.
Lyla June: Thank you for letting me share.
Ocean Robbins: As you had been sharing, it actually moved me while you sang in regards to the water that flows in our tears and flows from wombs. And I felt this actuality that we’re principally water.
And immediately, this phantasm that people are separate from the Earth simply form of dissolved for me, and I felt the fact that we’re the Earth. We are a part of the Earth. And the Earth invitations us to come back dwelling to that realizing so we will reclaim our reality, which is that we’re expressions of life on this planet — longing, I feel, to heal and get to be a part of that therapeutic.
Lyla June: I’m glad it may have that impact.
Ocean Robbins: Yes. Well, we’ve been speaking right here with Lyla June, indigenous activist, scientist, ecologist, advocate, singer, and songwriter. You can discover out extra about her at: lylajune.com.
She mentioned, it’s not in regards to the ego, it’s not about worry. It’s actually not, and we additionally wish to construct connections. So, if folks wish to contact her, please achieve this.
Lyla, it’s been an actual privilege to share this time with you, and I sit up for extra sooner or later.
Lyla June: Yes. Thank you, Ocean. I respect it.
Tell us within the feedback:
Do you are feeling impressed by this interview?
Do you ever really feel disconnected? How do you restore your connection to others and the Earth?
Do you suppose indigenous knowledge can add that means and worth to your life or to our world?